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No Difference

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Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #1 
Some people here seem to think that using vague or unclear definitions, or making up their own(!), is just fine because it suits themselves.   Unfortunately, this only leads to confusion in trying to articulate an argument or position.

Words, and their semantics, DO matter, regardless of what some here will claim.  If I point at something and call that "X" and you point at something else and call THAT "X" then we have a serious problem in communications.  No, it is NOT all right. 

I realize that a lot of this comes from living in the lazy era of hypercommunications where getting a message out is usually more important than any meaning that message may have.  That needs to stop, and it needs to stop now, before any more people suffer.   Mixing up the meanings of such basic terms as "Left" and "Right" leads to confusion and missed targets.

And as the result of your reckless use of media to amplify your mouths (and not necessarily any intellectual content), more people continue to suffer because of inaction borne of ignorance and stupidity.   That is what we are supposed to be fighting, so please stop helping the enemy.  Don't believe you have an enemy?  All I can wonder, then, is what dark cave you have been living in, or which suburban castle you have been hiding in, for the past 30 years.  Maybe YOUR life isn't so bad, but then maybe you should sign up with a much more rightwing organization to protect your interests.

I wish that you would all stop listening to the MSM and tune in, instead, to something like The Real News Network (therealnews.com) where you can get informed opinion without agenda (other than advancing truth, only a Leftist tendency).  MSNBC IS NOT A LEFT WING NEWS OUTLET.   It is owned by General Electric (you have heard of them, right?).   Why in hell would GE, one of this planet's largest corporations, give a rats ass about the common people.   Turn off your TV.  Please.  That will help these discussions along immensely.

The other issue I have, directly related, is all this pillow talk you have for coming together with the Right Wing and all the love they bring to the world.  Can't you see how idiotic that is?   Just because someone on Oprah says it, doesn't mean that it is true or has any relevance to the real-world suffering of actual people, many of whom work for a living and don't enjoy the luxury of watching afternoon talk shows.

So, please, drop the New Age yackety.  Stop quoting people.  Stop worshipping RW leaders as if they are potential allies.  And, most of all, puhleeeeeeeeeeze:

STOP USING CLICHES!!!

(Please, just stop.  OK?)

There is NOTHING more annoying than trying to engage in a conversation full of hackneyed expressions.   Yes, we all know about the military-industrial complex (and its variants like the medical-industrial complex and so forth).  There is no need to go all yackety about this.  You do not add anything to the conversation by rehashing ancient quotations and making vast generalizations.

Just state the issue and explain how you intend to address it.  Or, better yet, carefully and responsibly critique another member's position or solution.  If it has already been discussed, please join the conversation in the appropriate forum.  Don't hijack threads; it's rude, and I would think you people who grew up in the online age should know that well.

Most of all, if a thread has been resolved, don't revive it unless you have something NEW to add.  This will prevent rehashing of the same topics.

BTW, not everything in the world requires a remark.  I am a prolific poster here, but I think what I have said does not rehash issues, other than to get people to engage them in the first place.  If something doesn't belong in a particular forum, please contact the moderators and ask to have it moved to a more appropriate place.

Well-defined words used in true statements to form valid arguments is useful here.  Everything else is a waste of our time.

__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

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Posts: 114
Reply with quote  #2 
Of course GE cares about the common people. They need customers. Somebody has to be able to buy their products. Many of them aren't cheap. Here is a list of appliances:
The U.S. Department of Energy and Environmental Protection Agency have awarded GE with the Sustained Excellence Award for the seventh consecutive year. How can you not love this company?

Not only that, ADA-compliant* appliances from GE can help to make your home accessible to people with disabilities. The Americans with Disabilities Act establishes accessibility guidelines for many products. GE offers an array of products for the home that meet the requirements for ADA-compliance. Where would we be without GE?





No Difference

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Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #3 

Robert:  I expect you are kneeling when you are worshipping your Corporate Gods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The six reactors in the 2011 Fukushima I Nuclear Power Plant catastrophe had been designed by General Electric. Their design had been criticised as far back as 1972.[58]

In March 2011, The New York Times reported that, despite earning $14.2 billion in worldwide profits, including more than $5 billion from U.S. operations, General Electric did not owe taxes in 2010. General Electric had a tax benefit of $3.2 billion. This same article also pointed out that GE has reduced its American workforce by one fifth since 2002.[59]

In December 2011, the non-partisan organization Public Campaign criticized General Electric for spending $84.35 million on lobbying and not paying any taxes during 2008–2010, instead getting $4.7 billion in tax rebates, despite making a profit of $10.4 billion, laying off 4,168 workers since 2008, and increasing executive pay by 27% to $75.9 million in 2010 for the top 5 executives.[60]



Lots of companies bring "good things" to life.  They make a certain amount of money from each of their divisions, so what?

Incidentally, GE was heavily involved in building the "switches" for nuclear weapons until a massive protest campaign finally forced them out of that business.  They were also forced by public pressure to unload their weapons division to Lockheed Martin about 25 years ago.  Again, so what?

The problem is that they still don't care whether ordinary people make it or not; their arrogance in defeating taxes demonstrates that.  No one is above paying their fair share.


__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

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Posts: 114
Reply with quote  #4 

Actually I am not a fan of GE. In fact here in the Hudson Valley in New York they are particularly disliked because they polluted the Hudson River with PCBs and then fought for years to avoid paying for the clean up. Finally a cleanup is going on and GE is paying. The main point that I wanted to make is that they do need a market to sell their consumer appliances so it is in their self-interest that tens of millions of people can afford to buy their products. Therefore, if all the average people were heading toward poverty this would concern them. We need their products and they need us to buy them. There is a symbiotic relationship. I think a company like GE which makes so many different products winds up with mixed reviews. As far as I know their medical products are quite good. Their CT and MRI scanners certainly have helped revolutionize medicine. On TV today they were advertising their commercial jet engines as one of their "brilliant machines." To me if you are going to demonize a media company I would go after NewsCorp. They really are the bad guys. Fox News has lowered the standard for news to levels that no one would have believed possible a few decades ago. I don't think facts mean much to that company. The only thing that seems to matter is pushing their crazy right wing agenda. On the other hand GE does have a liberal news channel which I guess counters Fox News to some extent although I don't think it has anywhere near the same viewership. I only have basic cable so I can't watch MSNBC and therefore can't really comment on it. I don't agree with your advice of not listening to the mainstream media. I don't think the left wing media has any monopoly on the truth and certainly it doesn't have the adequate resources to cover the news. I watch BBC News America which I think is pretty good. I often watch NBC nightly news with Brian Williams which has some good stuff although it spends too much time on weather stories if you ask me. I also often watch the PBS News Hour. Since I only have basic cable I can only watch left wing news shows on the web. I think left wing news is valuable because it covers stuff like protest marches that the mainstream media largely ignore. And it also focuses on many stories that get little attention from the mainstream media. One thing that I don't like about the left wing media is that it doesn't question the concept of perpetual economic growth. I think dealing with the limits of growth is the most challenging issue we face because the majority of ecosystems are in decline and if this trend continues we could be facing a population collapse of billions perhaps in a few decades. Continued economic growth should be questioned because it seems to defy physics and ecology.

JoshuaBudden

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Reply with quote  #5 
In recent years GE profits and the amount they spend lobbying has soared.  Their US tax rate, tax rebates and government contracts reflect their invesment in buying politicians.

http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/summary.php?id=D000000125

http://www.contractormisconduct.org/index.cfm/1,73,221,html?ContractorID=27


Companies like GE are why the Justice Party exists.  They are a perfect representation of the corporate buy off of the Democrats and Republicans.
No Difference

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Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #6 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
Actually I am not a fan of GE. In fact here in the Hudson Valley in New York they are particularly disliked because they polluted the Hudson River with PCBs and then fought for years to avoid paying for the clean up. Finally a cleanup is going on and GE is paying.

Any news on whether they have kept up with their payments?   Many companies, like Texaco-Chevron and Exxon purposely dragged their feet paying for oil spill cleanups.  It would be interesting to hear about that.
Quote:
The main point that I wanted to make is that they do need a market to sell their consumer appliances so it is in their self-interest that tens of millions of people can afford to buy their products. Therefore, if all the average people were heading toward poverty this would concern them.

Corporations like GE have zillions (that's zillion with a "Z") of dollars they can rest on if and when times get rough.  Their CEOs and directors will not suffer during an economic downturn, if they suffer at any point at all.  Corporations ignore workers and consumers regularly. 

About 3 years ago, Kroger decided to up its prices.  So now we are paying more for groceries without any commensurate increase in wages to cover those increased costs.  I know, I know; it is the free market which does not have any one head to complain to, which is why the Right Wing loves it so much.  It is unaccountable because there is purposely nothing to be accountable in the first place, if you could find it.

Symbiotic?  My hole.
Quote:

As far as I know their medical products are quite good...On TV today they were advertising their commercial jet engines as one of their "brilliant machines."

So their advertisements are some sort of objective measure of the good they bring to the world?
Quote:
To me if you are going to demonize a media company I would go after NewsCorp. ... I don't think facts mean much to that company.

And Brian William's news show on NBC doesn't skip important issues, like the Pacific Free Trade Agreement?  When was the last time NBC News reported on the US-backed murders of Honduran peasant farmers and journalists trying to cover that story?  You might try reading Fair.org sometimes; they do a good job picking apart the deception that passes for journalism.   Please pull your head out of GE's tooshie.
Quote:

The only thing that seems to matter is pushing their crazy right wing agenda. On the other hand GE does have a liberal news channel

If you mean MSNBC, then tell me why no one on that channel dares speak too loudly about Obama's drone missions and NDAA powers and warrantless arrests?

Quote:
I don't agree with your advice of not listening to the mainstream media.
You could at least filter what you see and hear; I do that even on alternative media!  And I certainly don't purchase everything their advertisers claim like you do GE's self-pronouncements of do-gooding.

Quote:
I don't think the left wing media has any monopoly on the truth and certainly it doesn't have the adequate resources to cover the news.
 
Who else besides left wing media would even DARE to report the truth?   The RW won't because it could and would compromise their centralized wealth and power; that's why they abuse the hell out of their fully-bought "news" outlets.   One must be a real sucker to believe your nonsense.

Quote:
One thing that I don't like about the left wing media is that it doesn't question the concept of perpetual economic growth.

The Left Wing media doesn't deal with a lot of things because it lacks the enormous power and wealth that the RW media enjoys.  That's why it is important to donate, when you are able, to organizations like The Real News Channel (therealnews.com) and other alternative media.


__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
No Difference

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Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshuaBudden
Companies like GE are why the Justice Party exists.  They are a perfect representation of the corporate buy off of the Democrats and Republicans.


Joshua, I realize your post largely agrees with what I am saying.  But I have to pick it apart a bit, if only to question why the JP insists on the Left-Right bullcrap that does not hold the Rightwing accountable for the mess that these corporations make. 

That is why the RW must be barred from participating in policy-making in the JP.  As you pointed out, the RW already has its hand in policy making through its DP and RP puppetry.  You have to agree it is time to end their "input."

__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

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Posts: 114
Reply with quote  #8 
Quote:
One thing that I don't like about the left wing media is that it doesn't question the concept of perpetual economic growth.


Quote:
The Left Wing media doesn't deal with a lot of things because it lacks the enormous power and wealth that the RW media enjoys.


Is that a lame excuse or what? The left wing, right wing, Democrats and Republicans have one thing in common, they all believe in perpetual economic growth. I don't think you need huge resources to cover this issue. Just get a couple of scientists who question continued economic growth for starters. This topic comes up at UN meetings, I don't know why the Real News Channel or Democracy Now or Young Turks or whatever can't devote some time to it. I would say that that the biggest story of the century is climate change, but climate change is really part of a bigger story that includes the decline of a number of ecosystems and generally climate change will just make the decline of other systems worse. It appears we are in the midst of the 6th great extinction (and climate change would certainly speed that up). The oceans are now 30% more acidic than 100 years ago or so. We have huge dead zones in the ocean from excessive nitrogen. The coral reefs are dying and there are predictions that they will all be dead within a few decades (about a quarter of ocean life depends on coral reefs). Human made chemicals are in animal and plants everywhere on earth and only a few of these chemicals have been adequately tested. Much of the northern hemisphere is covered by the a brown haze from Asia. Underground water supplies are being severely depleted in many places and finding clean drinking water is becoming more of a problem. Soils are being lost through erosion. I think you get the picture. The capacity of the Earth has been exceeded by economic growth. What should we do?



I found a recent article on Hudson River dredging. After years of delays it looks like things are actually going well.
a
http://www.midhudsonnews.com/News/2013/January/17/PCB_dredge-17Jan13.html

EPA briefs Mid-Hudson on PCB Dredging


King: "a good job so far"

POUGHKEEPSIE – The second phase of the dredging of PCBs in the upper Hudson River is expected to start this spring four years after the project began in 2009.

Regional lawmakers and environmentalists were briefed on the project at Marist College Wednesday as the project stays on schedule with a completion date of 2016-2017.

“It's on schedule and maybe a little bit ahead of schedule, and G.E. has done a good job so far,” said David King, project manager and director of the EPA's field office.

“We will know pretty soon as to actual water quality is concerned but the real objective of the dredging is to reduce the levels of PCBs in the fish and that is going to take a while,” King said. He expects it to be 20-30 years before those levels are safe for fish consumption.

Aside from dredging's impact on the future, King said a lot has been learned from the clean-up itself.

“We've learned a lot. What's the best way to dredge, and how to get them out of the environment,” said King.

The project has been divided into three phases on a 40-mile stretch north of the Troy dam. General Electric dumped PCBs into the upper Hudson from the 1940s through 1976, and now the corporation is involved in one of largest environmental clean-ups currently underway in the country.

“That's where the active clean-up will be completed,” said Althea Mullarkey, a public policy analyst for Scenic Hudson, of the river's northern region.

 The EPA Superfund site extends to the southern tip of Manhattan, but the dredging is limited to that area above the Troy dam.

“It's hopeful they'll be reduced naturally,” said Mullarkey, of the 160-mile stretch south to New York City.

Still the dredging needed to be done.

“The only way to get rid of PCB contamination is removal,” said Mullarkey.








 

No Difference

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Reply with quote  #9 
Quote:
The left wing, right wing, Democrats and Republicans have one thing in common...


Once again, you are mixing up left wing with the Democrats.  The Democrats are Left Wing?  Really?  if that's the case, why the hell do we need yet another political party to represent the Left?

The Left wants equality for all people.  The Right never has and never will because it would destroy the basis of their existence.

As far as the Democrats and Republicans, it is very safe to say that they have more than one thing in common.  In fact, they are nearly indistinguishable.  They are both the parties of murder, inequality, violence, hatred, ignorance, and a long list of other words.  I thought -- or maybe I was simply hoping -- the JP was or would be different.  But I am finding out what some people who have already left in disgust already seem to have concluded.

The best way to rid the JP of the Left is to keep expounding the alleged virtues of the Democrats and slighting the very foundations of the Left, which is to achieve equality and human dignity for ALL people, everywhere.

__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

Registered:
Posts: 114
Reply with quote  #10 
I didn't mean the left wing and the Democrats are the same. I agree they are not the left wing although I would say there is a left wing of the Democratic party. Saying the Democrats and Republicansth are the same is nonsense. How many people believe that? Probably a smattering of left wingers and nobody else. Yes they are similar in some respects but they are more different than the same, particularly when it comes to economic, social, and environmental issues. Mainly that is because the Republican Party has gone far to the right in recent years. I am not sure what the Justice Party is. I feel that I am getting cognitive dissonance from the leadership. On the one hand the party platform is supposedly going to be like Rocky Anderson's campaign which I consider to be on the left, rather similar to the Green Party. On the other hand we are told that it is part of movement for Justice and Democracy that just about all Americans can join. Clearly that isn't left or right. Who in America is not for justice and democracy? To me that is not a basis for a political party. Too bland. Perhaps they are using "justice" as code word for left wing issues? I am not sure. People can argue all day about whether or not we have a democracy. I think we do. To me the politicians are very responsive to the voters despite all the corporate money and lobbyists. Right now we see the Republicans moving on immigration because of their election disaster. Others think we have a plutocracy. Maybe we do but I don't think we are quite there yet.
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