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Robert

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Reply with quote  #16 
I know many people are hurting financially but it's not 99%. The top 10% are doing very well. They say 50% are in poverty or on the brink so clearly they have nothing to give. So basically whatever sacrifices would have to be made would be expected to fall most heavily on the top 10% and to a lesser extent on the 50% to 90% in a progressive manner. If we are going to hold on to the absurd notion that 99% of the population is really hurting financially then we can't do anything. The upper middle class can certainly find something to cut back on. Cell phone plans, cable plans, selection of restaurants, selection of vacations spots, size of television, expensive Christmas gifts, botox injections, tanning salon sessions, health club fees, landscaping, cars costing over $40,000, remodeling kitchens and baths, building new decks, second homes, etc. There must be something they can give up without being crushed.
No Difference

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Reply with quote  #17 
http://ctj.org/images/2012/cgdiv2012bargraph2.jpg
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Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

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Reply with quote  #18 
I don't know what that graph proves except that the top 1% are in a league by themselves. I think the overall income for the 90%-99% will show that they are far from what could be characterized as financially hurting. Most can probably shop at Neiman Marcus, Nordstrom, and Bloomingdales. I would say anyone who has to shop at Walmart and dollar stores is financially hurting.
No Difference

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Reply with quote  #19 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert in post #14
When I say both sides should be unhappy I mean both sides did not get everything they wanted. I think the attitude that we should develop is shared sacrifice.


Back to this point.  After the compromise goes through, after the fiscal cliff, the grand bargain, etc, etc, what has the 1% given up?   You even concurred with the graph a few posts back that the top 10% or so are doing exceedingly well.

What do you propose the 1% or top 10% should give up?  Keep in mind that real wages have already declined to early 1960's levels and below in some instances.  How much more of this abuse does your proposal expect the already suffering to bear?

What do the elite give up under this scheme?  And is it really equitable with the kinds of cuts we must endure?   What exactly is "shared sacrifice" -- it is equitable or do we give up more than the wealthy?


__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

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Posts: 114
Reply with quote  #20 
The best example of shared sacrifice in the US that I can think of is World War II. There should be no need for shared sacrifice with the fiscal cliff. I think that I agree with Paul Krugman that what we need at this point is increased government spending. However, like it or not we are stuck with the Tea Party types in the House thanks to Dick Armey and his FreedomWorks organization in particular. As usual our worst problems can be traced back to Texas. Because of these crazies, who were democratically elected by the people, it appears that a lot of things are on the table that shouldn't be because these characters would take down the country before voting for a reasonable increase in taxes. In Texas there is no income tax and much of the revenue for government, which is made weak by their constitution, comes from a very regressive sales tax. That's the type of people we are dealing with in Washington now. Unless these people are voted out of office we are doomed to battling the Texas mentality for quite some time. I guess the Democrats could hang tough and hope everything doesn't cave in or give something up that shouldn't be given up. I don't see any good choices with this thing given the Tea Party presence.
No Difference

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Reply with quote  #21 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert
The best example of shared sacrifice in the US that I can think of is World War II.


I wasn't looking for an example so much as a definition.  Still, I think the lower classes gave up a lot more than the elite in WW II, if for no other reason than the lives of so many young men while the corporations and banksters made off with billions.  This includes companies with German and American subsidiaries who got reparations for their losses from both sides after the war.  I don't recall families receiving any reparations for their lost loved ones.

So, if that is an example of shared sacrifice, I will pass.  I don't think I care for shared sacrifice.  Maybe if it were more equitable, maybe if the risk was spread around to all fairly with some justifiable bias to those giving up more than others, maybe then I could swallow it.

This scenario is like something right out of Animal Farm:  We must all shared a portion of this sacrifice, but some must share more than others.

Quote:
There should be no need for shared sacrifice with the fiscal cliff. I think that I agree with Paul Krugman that what we need at this point is increased government spending.


I agree.  Actually, Robert Reich puts it best:  http://readersupportednews.org/opinion2/277-75/14849-8-principles-to-guide-democrats-in-the-fiscal-cliff-showdown.  He says
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Reich
The wealthy have to pay their fair share of taxes. That's what the election was all about, and we won.
Apparently, some folks at Democratic Party strategy did not get that memo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by You said
However, like it or not we are stuck with the Tea Party types in the House thanks to Dick Armey and his FreedomWorks organization in particular. As usual our worst problems can be traced back to Texas. Because of these crazies, who were democratically elected by the people, it appears that a lot of things are on the table that shouldn't be because these characters would take down the country before voting for a reasonable increase in taxes. In Texas there is no income tax and much of the revenue for government, which is made weak by their constitution, comes from a very regressive sales tax. That's the type of people we are dealing with in Washington now. Unless these people are voted out of office we are doomed to battling the Texas mentality for quite some time. I guess the Democrats could hang tough and hope everything doesn't cave in or give something up that shouldn't be given up. I don't see any good choices with this thing given the Tea Party presence.


Here, you seem to share my sentiments.  And it is exactly why the Left should not be entering into bargains at the moment.  There is not much the Left has anymore to bargain with, really.  We have been decimated.

So, since the fiscal conservatives hold power at this moment, you believe that the Left must give in, even if the deals are patently unfair to the Left?  I mean, perhaps you are right.  I am just wondering if this is your suggestion.

__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
No Difference

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Posts: 155
Reply with quote  #22 
I meant to post this much earlier in this thread.  I think it is an outstanding article in the context of this very discussion.

http://www.7dvt.com/2012pragmatism-or-purity-fusion-good-progressive-party

If nothing else, it demonstrates that smaller and growing political parties CAN happen and they CAN endure, purity notwithstanding.

__________________
Cooperation, coordination, and clarity are essential to creating a political party based on equality. Cliches and equivocations will not move this or any other party forward.
Robert

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Posts: 114
Reply with quote  #23 
Very appropriate article.
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